Episode 2: U R Stardust with Bayley Van
Transcript:
Virgie Tovar: For years and years I didn’t appreciate all the beautiful, magical things my body does every day. For years and years, all I could see was how my body didn’t measure up to the western ideal, with all its sexism and racism and fat phobia. I hated my body. I cursed it. I starved it.
Now when I think about my body, I think of a quote from astronomer Carl Sagan, about how the elements that make up our DNA, our teeth and our blood… those elements were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. He said, “We are made of star stuff.”
And here’s what your stardust body is doing right now: your heart is pumping blood. Your lungs are trading oxygen for carbon dioxide. Tiny hairs in your ears are picking up the sound of my voice. Your brain is turning those sound waves into meaning. Your skin can feel the touch of a loved one. Your eyes can detect about one million colors, so many colors that there aren’t even words to describe all of them in any human language.
Your body can dance and laugh and dream and stretch and grow and hurt and heal itself. It’s amazing.
Through all of those years when I was hating my wondrous body, it was there. Chugging along like a chubby little choo choo train — taking care of me.
My body has been my truest friend. She’s got me… has had me through all of it. She. Is. Magic.
[2:02] Our feelings about our bodies are almost always all tangled up with our feelings about food. And we have all sorts of feelings about food - in part - because we’re afraid that it will make our bodies bigger… and we’ve all got the message loud and clear that bigger is not okay. Ever watched fat people get abused on The Biggest Loser? Or read studies that show that fat people are 12 times more likely to face workplace discrimination? We see the way that fat people are treated and we are afraid of being treated like that. It’s normal to be afraid of being treated like poop garbage. But here at Rebel Eaters Club, we know the solution is not attempting to make your body smaller… that just keeps you in an LTR with self-hatred.
I used to tell myself that I was dieting because I wanted to “look better” and “be healthier.” But really I was trying to control how other people saw me, and how they treated me. I couldn’t change being a woman, or a person of color… I couldn’t change the fact that I grew up working class. But I totally bought the idea that if I could control my body I could maybe protect myself against at least some nasty judgements.
Diet culture is about control… all kinds of control. And about 25% of people who diet regularly eventually develop an eating disorder. EDs and diets are not the same, but they are both about controlling food when we feel like we cannot control other aspects of our lives.
[3:46] I’m Virgie Tovar. This is Rebel Eaters Club.
In this episode you’re going to hear from someone who’s in recovery from an eating disorder. Her name is Bayley.
VT: OK Bayley? So I texted you and asked you if there was anything you were in the mood for. So I decided to create a little menu based on your input. I brought Bubly water, which I have a deep passion for, and then some brie.
Bayley Van: Which I have a deep passion for.
VWe met 5 years ago at a reading at the San Francisco Public Library. Yes, the nerdiest meet-cute ever. It happened to me! She was wearing at least 5 necklaces, looked like an adorable goth with soft edges, and was fat like me. We were both at the library for the monthly queer reading series. It didn’t take long before we discovered a mutual love of witchcraft, oversharing and... Oreos.
VT: As sort of a dessert, I bought some bootleg Oreos that have the mint flavor. They’re kinda holiday.
BV: Yeah, they're amazing. I've been eating them and they're great.
VT: Well you like dropped some on the floor and you're like, I'm not above eating floor oreos.
BV: Five second rule.
VT: So this is our little menu.
BV: All right, sweet. I'm really stoked on this. I'm just gonna like reach across and grab that.
VT: Do it. I'm gonna open up the tiny baby carrots.
BV:I have always had like mixed feelings about baby carrots.
VT: Okay tell me.
BV: But recently, I smoked some weed with my friend Aleni and the only food that she had was baby carrots. And it just changed. I was like, oh, my God, I never knew baby carrots could be like this.
VT: I kind of want us to do a dual carrot crunch hummus moment. What do you think? And just create the loudest crunch we can possibly create.
BV: Let's do it.
VT: And this is a crunch— This is the crunch that's going to ripple through history. This is the crunch that will be heard around the world Bayley.
BV: Yes. Let’s do it.
VT: Are you ready? OK. One, two. Did you hear that patriarchy? We’re coming for you!
VT: Quick note: Bayley’s 22. When I was 22 I was still busy trying to squeeze my body into tiny pants and get... married narcissists to love me ... but Bayley? She's way wiser than I was at her age.
BV: Diet culture is like someone speaking into a microphone in your head all the time because it's the only thing you can think about, because when you're not eating the only thing your body wants to do is eat. It never lets you be alone with yourself in your own thoughts to realize all of your potential.
VT: See what I mean? Bayley spent years in the throes of an eating disorder, and we’re going to talk about that in detail throughout this episode. Bayley’s path to recovery is unique – everyone who struggles with an eating disorder has a different path to recovery. If you have an ED, your path to recovery might look entirely different. If that sounds triggering for you right now, you might want to listen to this another time.
VT: Okay. Bailey. Who are you?
BV: Oh, my God. So, I mean, every person is like a lot of things. My like Instagram bio slash Tinder bio like version of myself
VT: Yeah.
BV: Is— I am a lesbian and I'm a woman of color. I'm an educator. I am— This is actually in my Instagram bio team trauma. Definitely like working through that shit. I'm fat. These things are like very central to my identity, but also obviously don't make up all of who I am.
VT: Yeah. So can you talk about the role that food played in your family?
BV: Food for my whole family is so intense. It's like rough. So, like, literally every woman on my mom's side of the family has like actively an eating disorder, probably with the exception of me, because I,like do things really hard. So I like had a really severe eating disorder to the point where someone was like, we need to intervene on this shit. So I have like processed a lot of that, but a lot of my family still like really deep in it.
VT: Right. I mean, you still live with your family.
BV: Yes, I do. I live with my mom and my little sister.
VT: Right. I mean, I remember you telling me that story about the bowls the size of the bowls in your house.
BV: We have the smallest bowls. Like almost doll sized bowls that my mother and my sister will put like servings of ice cream into and then I get to break those barriers by just having like four servings, just being like, yes, I will take another serving of pasta and another and another until I get to the equivalent of a normal sized bowl of pasta.
VT: When you talk about being in the depths of an eating disorder, what do you consider sort of the origin story of it?
BV: Well, it started really young. I started restricting as soon as I realized that I had the ability to, I was probably around like seven and I stopped eating lunches and stuff. Like that is definitely eating disorder behavior, but it is also the behavior that is often expected of a women, is to skip a meal. Then right before I started high school, I went to this sleep away summer camp and my mom wasn't there and I just had this moment where I was like, there is no one supervising what I eat. I could just eat nothing. And so I essentially didn't eat that whole week.
And honestly, those longer periods of extreme restriction are kind of what kick eating disorder brain into high gear. The long periods of essentially starvation will start to mess up your kind of biological functions of like hunger, and I did some pretty extreme restricting and actually ended up getting hospitalized a couple of times through that. It was not fun. I don't recommend it.
VT: I'm thinking about being 8, you know, for me, being 18 years old. And I had been restricting from around the age that you were naming like probably around 7 or 8 and— I remember, you know, the first time I attempted starvation or some version of it was when I was 11.
BV: Mm hmm.
VT: And then at 18 I was studying abroad in college. I was living in Italy. And I had this kind of similar thought, which was, you know, I'm in another place and I can ratchet up my restriction. And for me, it was like this fantasy of returning unrecognizable. I'm thinking about like one movie that I used to watch religiously was this movie called She's Out of Control? And it starred Tony Danza. And also Chandler from Friends.
You know, the idea is like a lot of these movies, there is a sort of chubby girl with braces and glasses and she is maybe a junior, a sophomore in high school. And over the summer she exercises really hard every single day. She's just sweating, working out. And then that year of high school, it sort of starts and she gets her braces off and she gets her glasses off. She gets contacts and she emerges as a babe. And she goes from, you know, a 0 to a 10.
The reward for all of her restriction and exercising all summer and losing an entire summer of her life is that boys want to be her boyfriend. You know, that kind of idea that you could— You could totally change what you looked like and who you were essentially over a summer, I mean, it still is a cultural trope.
So I'm 18 years old thinking that I'm going to radically transform, be unrecognizable to my family when I return at the international terminal. And this incentivizes me to begin eating almost nothing. And my goal is literally to eat absolutely as little as possible. And whenever hunger gets overwhelming, I would eat a spoonful of food.
I did that for probably about a month. And then I started— The signs started to happen of like, what happens when you do that for a long time. I started to lose equilibrium. That was the first thing that happened.
BV: I used to fall all the time. I would pass out. I would just like tip over like—
VT: Yep. And then equilibrium leads to nausea. And then it also, right, like I didn't have any calories. So I was exhausted all the time and I remember at one point I was— I fell asleep on a bench two blocks from my apartment because I was so exhausted, I couldn't make it from the downtown to my apartment, which was only a few blocks. And I had fallen asleep during the day but I had slept through sunset. So I woke up. It's dark. I'm in a city I don't know that well by myself. And yet all the while, I knew all this bad stuff was happening. I kid you not Bayley, I did not associate any of that negative stuff with my eating behavior because I thought that the way that I was eating was healthy and positive. I mean, do you know— Do you like—.
BV: I do know exactly.
VT: Like eating disorder cognitive dissonance phenomenon.
BV: Where you're like, I'm just healthy. I don't like— I don't understand why my hair's falling out. I'm eating so well. All I've eaten is celery. And isn't that good for you?
VT: It's just interesting how it's such a magical thinking, actually, like rapid metamorphosis into an entirely different person–
BV: Oh, yes.
VT: –is absurd. Last night when we were texting, you were telling me about celery. Can you discuss the celery story? Do you feel comfortable?
BV: Oh my gosh. Yes. Okay so I had this celery-Oreos dichotomy. That's like literally I thought about it in my head. I was like, there's celery and there's Oreos. And I never liked celery ever. But I was like eating disorder me was like two birds with one stone. You hate this food so you're gonna eat it less. And celery is essentially hard water that tastes like armpit. And like, allegedly you burn more calories chewing and digesting it than is in it. So I like lived on celery for about three weeks. I ended up in the hospital after that. You can't do it. You can't live on celery. You die.
VT: Right.
BV: So I would just like eat celery. And then I'd like put an Oreo in front of me and look and smell the Oreo and eat the celery.
VT: Woah.
BV: And then oftentimes at the end, I'd be like I need to eat this Oreo I'd eat and I'd feel so bad and I'd cry and I'd be like, Oh my God, I can’t believe I ate that single Oreo. Somehow all of my feelings about food got concentrated like onto Oreos. And I would think about Oreos all the time. I remember doing crunches in my bedroom, like one Oreo, two Oreos, three Oreos. Like I would just like everything I thought about was in terms of like, I just want to eat a Oreo so bad. But I can't.
I spent so much like emotional and mental energy, just like thinking about food, thinking about not eating food, thinking about what would happen if I ate food. And now I just eat. Which is awesome. And then I can think about other shit.
When I was in eating disorder world, was like the worst thing that could happen to me was that I would get fat, and I did get fat, and it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me. And honestly, like, as soon as I started eating again, that fear stopped existing.
That fear is a product of being fully enveloped in like the starving brain. And once you're out of that place, it's so— It's so much easier to like— A lot like to find love and to like internally balance those feelings. And— It's just like so important to eat. Please eat.
VT: Wow. Can we— Can we just— I just I need to eat an Oreo right now.
BV: Same. Let's do it. OK.
VT: Oh, my God.
[17:40] Ad break
[20:17] VT: We’re back. I’m still thinking about the teen transformation movie, and the deeply fucked up idea that hidden somewhere inside you is another version of you — the “real” you — that’s more beautiful, more perfect, and that that person is the only one who’s worthy of love.
It feels deeply gendered. I mean, I don’t know that dudes feel this pressure to radically transform themselves so they can just be … acceptable. Worthwhile. Fully human.
But it also feels deeply racialized. The women in these movies who could get thin and then get loved were almost always white. And years later, I realized starving myself wasn’t just about being as thin as possible, but being as close to whiteness as possible, too.
Bayley says she always knew that was part of the deal for her.
BV: I honestly really explicitly did have that connection in my head. I am half black, half white. My mom's side of the family is the white side of the family. My dad's side of the family, is the black side of the family. I am like relatively light-skinned. And honestly, as soon as I started, like visibly restricting, my aunt was like, “Bayley, why are you trying to look like a white girl?” Like that connection was made really fast. Ultimately, I was trying to adhere to like white heteropatriarchal ideals of beauty and had this idea that somehow being more white would make me more safe and would make me more desirable.
And I mean, ultimately, I just lost a bunch of my hair and that didn't make me particularly desirable at all.
VT: I mean, I think back on what happened to me in childhood, where it was primarily boys emotionally torturing me. Day after day after day and trying to force me through this abuse to submit to their expectation that I'd be the right size. I now realize in adulthood that I was getting two lessons at once. I was getting the lesson that I should be thin, but I was getting the lesson that if I was desirable to boys, I could be safe from abuse.
BV: Yes.
VT: They're the opposite sides of the same coin.
BV: Yes. I feel like a lot of kind of like the everyday violence that men direct at women often has to do with deviating from the set expectation of like what an attractive good whatever malleable woman is like a thin, quiet white woman. And I've never been any of those things. I have always been like a bit of a weirdo. Loud. Kind of a know-it-all. Definitely a little eccentric. Just like a frickin’ weirdo. I've been a weirdo my whole life.
VT: Also deeply charming.
BV: Thank you. Like I'm into it, is part of my identity. I've always been this way and I've always received like a large amount of pushback from that. And so I was like, OK, I can't— I've tried to be less weird. I can't be less weird, but I have not tried being more thin and more white, maybe if I adhere to these expectations in other ways, I'll be safe from this abuse. That was definitely a lot of my thinking and ultimately, I was still deviant, wasn't safe. Didn't super work out extremely well for me.
VT: One of the things that creeps me out so much now that I'm not restricting is that of course, it was unpleasant to be exhausted and irritable. All the things that hunger, chronic hunger creates, like, you know, really physical discomfort, exhaustion, irritability, all the stuff. But I remember feeling in the depths of my physical weakness from hunger, this sense of femininity that I never felt.
BV: Oh, yes.
VT: And it was so powerful and so intoxicating to me. that weakness, that frailty was a sort of coveted and prized experience for me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
BV: I do. I was like, oh, my God, I'm fainting like a Victorian woman.
VT: But which is that which is so tied to that white feminine ideal — Well I think like for I mean, I don't know. Forgive me if I'm overstepping, but like I think that for both of us, the white woman ideal was very present in our homes.
BV: Yeah. Yes, very much so. Yeah. Me and my little sister, we didn't really grow up around my dad's side family. We were only around extremely thin white women. And— That was just like the way I wanted to be. I just wanted to be like I said, a fainting Victorian woman small enough to be easily kidnapped.
VT: Wow.
BV: Like the type of person you could just throw over your shoulder and rescue or kidnapped or leave with a dragon. Like small enough easily contained, like— That's what I was like— I feel so like beautiful and feminine and even though all my hair is falling out and my skin is terrible and I have constant diarrhea from chewing sugarless gum. I feel so sexy and feminine. Like living up to this, like kind of historical ideal white woman that's definitely carried through.
VT: I kind of want to return to the concept of living with an eating disorder, coming through it. Like for you what was that? Well, you were talking about an intervention, but what was the breaking in the clouds moment for you? Did that happen internally or was it external?
BV: So it was a combination of both. So I was hospitalized a couple of times. Hospitalization is super effective because it sucks. And you're like, I would do anything to not have to do that again. I also was starting to have issues with my heart, which still kind of carry through to this day. And I got to the point where I was like, I'm going to die. Around that time — and this is I feel like this is like a niche Bay area experience. But whatever. I took mushrooms for the first time and I had this moment where I was looking at myself in the bathroom mirror and I was like, I have so much love for this person. And I'd never had that feeling before. And as soon as I came down, that feeling went away. But I knew I'd had it. That really was like a turning point for me. And like right after that, I graduated from the various programs I was in for my eating disorder, started on antipsychotic medication, and after I was put on medication, I gained about 130 pounds in one year, which was like a jarring experience. I'm not going to lie. But basically I'm like, I'm at the point that, like, even when those feelings come up, I'm like, what am I gonna do? Lose 130 pounds? No.
VT: Right.
BV: Like that's not gonna happen, so fuck it. Do you know how long it would take you to lose a hundred and thirty pounds, Bailey? Not fucking worth it. So. I can I'm going to love myself here. Yeah, in a way that I never have when I was thinner. And it's awesome.
VT: Mm. Totally. I mean when we met, you were already aware of fat activism and fat acceptance. I'm curious about right— Like that your process into that or your introduction to it.
BV: Yeah. Honestly, I'm not sure. I feel like my introduction was probably through Tumblr. Like I was big into Tumblr when I was in high school. And I also like kind of because I'd like been through this whole eating disorder journey, there were like little bits. Like there were like a couple of people who I ran into who were like doctors or psychiatrist or psychologist who were like, hey, like there is a different way to look at this.Then, when I was around 18, I want to say I had this like group of friends. We were like, very alternative. Very queer, even though I was still dating men and saying I was a lesbian. And we had like crazy colored hair and wore all black and just kind of talked about like our various intersections of oppression.
And it was this moment where I was like — I'm fat. I'm a freak. I'm queer and I love it. Like, I just got really into it. And that was I feel like when I started to kind of build this like internal self-esteem where I would just like pump myself up all the time, post so many selfies on Facebook and Instagram and just be like, I'm so fucking hot. Like, you look at me with my like mostly shaved head with like a kind of tall troll doll blue thing happening on top and my full face of glitter and all this shit. And I was like, yes, I'm into it. You're into to it. Y'all are fucking into it.
VT: Yeah. Totally.
BV: And I feel like that was really kind of the beginning of my — like my real self acceptance and like self-love, like fuck accepting yourself. I love myself.
VT: What is it like being in this space of self-love and especially around body and food and be — living in a house where there's this active disordered eating happening?
BV: Yes. Well, I have had to set some really strong boundaries, and I feel like those strong boundaries that I've set have honestly been helpful to everyone. I sat down with my mom and my sister and was like, here are some things like I'm not OK with. And if I'm going to keep living with you guys, I need these things to change. We need to stop talking about food. Like it was the sort of situation where, like me and my little sister would only eat when my mom wasn't home, because she'd like always say something.
VT: Right.
BV: Like even if it was just like, oh, oh, what are you eating? That still was just like it felt so weird. Yeah, like I'm just eating like or like, oh, are you going to have all of that? Aren't you going to save some of that? Like, I was like, we need to stop having this food interaction. I also need everyone to stop telling me to lose weight, to stop suggesting ways for me to lose weight and to stop telling me that any of my other health issues would be better if I lost weight. And I've had this conversation at this point we've had it a couple of times. And in general, my mom and my sister have been pretty receptive. They're trying.
VT: I got say, like I'm thinking about how you're 22. I'm 37. And you have had all of these extraordinary realizations that it took me really like much longer time to have. And I'm wondering if do you feel like there's something generational about that? Do you feel like your— Like you're in a generation where there are just different attitudes or more tools or—
BV: I absolutely agree that there are like more tools and that the attitude towards— Like the way bodies can even be is like changed a lot. Like a lot since like even like the early 2000s when I was in like middle school. I'm like technically I'm like at the edge of Millennial and Gen Z. and like Gen Z is just trying to like, fuck shit up like in a good way. Like the world we live in is not working on so many levels and it needs to change. We have been completely divested of the American dream. And so there is definitely a freedom in that to like restructure and recreate. And I think that's awesome. Also, there's like a very real sense that, like, our time is super limited and we need to get shit done as soon as possible.
VT:As someone with a history of E.D., how does it feel to hear people talk about or endorse aspects of diet culture?
BV: I mean, honestly, it fills me with rage. Like that is one of the few things where I like my face will get hot. Like my hands will start shaking because I know diet culture impinges on people's personal freedom. Diet culture is a fucking intellectual muzzle that prevents specifically women from like realizing their full like— psychic, intellectual, like everything, potential. It's a method of subjugation. It's a brainwashing tool. Diet culture is what cult leaders do to cult members, depriving them of food, depriving them of energy, depriving them of sleep.
Diet culture is on a certain level, like someone speaking into a microphone in your head all the time because it's the only thing you can think about, because when you're not eating the only thing your body wants to do is eat because you need to eat. And so it never lets you be alone with yourself and your own thoughts to realize all of your potential. And that's what enrages me, is it's like it is like at the very core, a brain washing technique to like force the subjugation of women.
VT: If I could drop our mic because it's not attached to a very heavy thing, I would. I would drop both of our mics. That was amazeballs. Thank you.
VT: I had to ask Bayley one more question… about what life is like from the other side of recovery. What does she have to say to the person who is still finding their way out of diet culture?
BV: I would say like imagine a world where you can eat whatever you want and you can eat whenever you're hungry. And you never have to think about it. You never have to think about like, oh, like, should I eat that? Shouldn't I eat that? What else have I eaten today? If you want to eat something, eat it.. imagine being able to go to the Santa Cruz Beach boardwalk and get a fried Twinkie. Like you can have that. That is within reach. You can do it.
VT: Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes. I love that.
[36:15] VT: There is nothing wrong with your body. There is nothing wrong with your body. No matter what your body looks like or what it can or cannot do, no matter if you have a chronic condition, whether you will live 100 years or 80 years or 30 years — your body is wonderful. It’s a miracle. It’s magical. You are magical.
I know that for a lot of people it’s hard to believe that. I get it. Diet culture has hurt us all so much. And it takes time to recover from it. Lots of time. And for some people, it takes serious medical intervention. But in case you are ready to hear it… even just a little bit... I want you to know that you are precious beyond measure.
One part of this conversation really stuck with me... When Bayley talked about living with her mom and sister - people who are obviously very important to her but who have very different relationships to food and their bodies.
That got me thinking about this week’s journal prompt. Here it is:
Bayley says she had to make some rules with her mom and sister about how they talk about their bodies and about food when she’s around. What are the new rules you’d LOVE to set for your family, or friends, roommates, coworkers about how they talk about food and bodies?
If you want to write down your thoughts, you can send it to us at rebeleatersclub@gmail.com, or leave us a voicemail at 862-231-5386 and your story could make it onto the show. 862-231-5386.
Rebel Eaters Club is an original podcast from Transmitter Media. I’m Virgie Tovar. The show is produced by Lacy Roberts and Jordan Bailey, with help from James T Green and Alex Sujong Laughlin. Our editor is Sara Nics. Gretta Cohn is our executive producer.