S3 E2: The Punk Art of Saying F-U to Diet Culture
Photo courtesy of Liz Cabrera
Vishinna Turner tells Virgie about growing up fat, Black, and punk in Fresno, CA. Spoiler alert: it wasn’t easy! But Vishinna also shares how art and friendship saved her life and helped her on the path to self love.
Journal with us! In this episode, Vishinna teaches us that creativity can be an incredible way to develop intuition and reconnect to desire - things that diet culture takes from us. What creative practices light you up? If you don't have any right now, try to imagine what those practices might be.
Virgie Tovar: [00:03] From Transmitter Media, this is Rebel Eaters Club. And I’m your host Virgie Tovar. I can't wait for you to meet my guest today. Her name is Vishinna Turner. Vishinna is an artist and musician based out of Fresno, California. She is the bassist in one of my all time favorite bands: Fatty Cakes and the Puff Pastries.
They have a riot girl sound and they sing about things like working at the mall and navigating fatphobia. They hand out pizza from the stage. They have backup singers called the “quesadilla angels.” The lead singer, Amber, plays the xylophone while wailing into the mic. And Vishinna is right there, front and center stage with Amber, shredding on her bass.
They are awesome!
The first time I saw them perform, it was like that scene in Wayne's world the first time Wayne sees Cassandra – heart eyes for days. Woahhhh.
But before that magical moment, Vishinna was deep in diet culture for a long time. And her relationship to her bass and to being in a band coincided with her decision to stop trying to make herself small. I love how she taught me that creativity and art can be part of saying, “Goodbye!” to diet culture forever.
[01:44] Vishinna, welcome to Rebel Eaters Club!
Vishinna Turner: [01:47] Woo! Hello! Thank you for having me.
Virgie: [01:51] Ah, I'm just so excited to talk to you. Before we even get started into the questions, we have to have our snack.
Vishinna: [01:56] Ooh! Okay.
Virgie: [01:58] What are we eating together today?
Vishinna: [02:01] Ooh. So we will be snacking on one of my most favorite, most delicious and decadent treats: creme brulee. I love that you can like crack that sugar on the top. It's very like creamy and very textural. So that's why I ended up wanting to do this with you because you know, you're just so perfect and textural.
Virgie: [02:24] Oh my goodness. I feel the same way about you.
Vishinna: [02:27] Aw, thanks.
Virgie: [02:28] I have many thoughts about creme brulee as metaphor for our entire relationship, but I'll get into that in a minute. So should we tap the sugar together for the, for the benefit of those listening?
Vishinna: [02:39] Oh, let's do that. Yes.
Virgie: [02:41] Ok, 3, 2, 1.
Vishinna: [02:47] Ooh, I hit the plate too.
Virgie: [02:48] Oh my god. I love it.
Vishinna: [02:54] And mine came with fruit. So I just got a raspberry in mine, which was really good.
Virgie: [03:00] I love that. I mean, I just took my first bite and I'm just immediately transported. It's like this whole body experience, it's like the caramelized sugar is just so good. And then the creaminess! It's THICK – with like three C's…
Vishinna: [03:16] Oh yeah.
Virgie: [03:17] …maybe 14 C’s, like thiccccc. Um, and I just love…
Vishinna: [03:22] it's true.
Virgie: [03:23] … a thick-ass creamy dessert!
Vishinna: [03:27] Ugh, same! Same.
Virgie: [03:30] Um, I have to tell you, ok, um, when I found out that you had chosen creme brulee, um, I was so excited because creme brulee and tiramisu were like rallying cries for me after I left diet culture. Like, I had been in the prison of diet culture for so long. And all I wanted was these foods that symbolized in my mind, like such a celebration of life, and a celebration of the body and its capacity to feel.
You know, after years of diet culture, it felt like those were, those were like my patriarchy smashing tools of choice was I was like, “You know what, I'm going to talk about you, and I'm going to be a feminist, and I'm going to write about this, but I'm also going to just bask in pleasure and deliciousness.” All of the things that I felt like I had been told I wasn't allowed to have as both a fat person and I think as a woman. Um, dessert was sort of this symbol of alive-ness that felt really powerful.
Vishinna: [04:37] I, I mirror that so much because you know, like so much of my young life was like really trying to fit into a space that I will never be able to be admitted into, you know, like as a fat Black queer woman, you know, like I had to, or I felt at least that I had to try to fit into a society that I, like I said, that I would never actually fit into.
But one of the coolest moments was like after high school, like leaving that space of, um, feeling like you're under this microscope – like after leaving that feeling and that space, I actually got a job at a French bakery. And I would ride my bike to work, and every day at the end of the day, we'd like be able to take snacks home, and I would always ride home with my little baguettes and my little creme brulees and my little fruit tarts, you know, like just in my basket.
And, you know, I just, in those moments, I just felt so free. And so like comfortable in my body. And I wanted the world to know I was about to eat all this delicious food! You know? And so I feel like those, those really, for me were the days of accepting, accepting this body that I'm in and loving it and like really treating it to the finest, finest desserts, you know?
Virgie: [05:59] Yes. And I think that the element that is really powerful about it too is sort of that it's a little extra, you know. Like there's something a little bit like that sense of, you know, “I'm not just going to make peace with food. I am going to love the fucking shit out of food.” And I feel like for me, that's what this dessert represents.
Vishinna: [06:21] Absolutely. And I never would have imagined being able to eat French pastries and like, and be happy and fat, you know. Like I would never have thought of that as a kid, you know. There's just so many other layers of other people's things that made it so that I felt I wasn't worthy of this food.
Virgie: [06:40] Yes. I mean I want to go back to that little shy kid who didn't feel like they could take up a lot of space. Um, can you talk about what your upbringing was like when it comes to food and eating? Like what lessons did you pick up, where and how?
Vishinna: [06:57] Ooh. So most of my family is fat. You know, like we have lived this life. This is us. But with that being said, because we are also Black, because I live in a very conservative town that is primarily white, there is a lot of trying to fit into whiteness so that we could survive, you know?
And so fatness came into that. It was a part of that. It was like, okay, so you have to be small. You have to make sure that nobody's looking at you or picking you out or othering you. So you have to try to fit in, right. You have to be… little. And my mother at some point was like, “Cool, let's get you on some diet pills. We’re going to get you on a meal plan. We're going to figure this out.” You know, there was just a lot of practice of making sure that people didn't know we were poor, making sure people didn't like pay so much attention to my Blackness or fatness, you know. Like I had to try to, to divert a lot.
But then eventually. I just looked around, to be honest, I just looked around at my aunties and my cousins and my mom herself, you know, and I just like, “Look at how happy we are together! Look at how much we enjoy cooking!”
Like my mother's a caterer sometimes and like has her own business, but we spent so much time, like trying to fit into the spaces that we were in that I felt like I couldn't even be excited about food when I was younger. I couldn't even be happy that my mom was making this giant pot of gumbo, you know, that smelled delicious. Like, um, I could smell it on my walk home from school, you know, like all the way. Like it just, I couldn't be happy about those things it felt like.
But as I grew up, as, as my relationship with my mother and family progressed, we started celebrating each other so much more and even helping with my mother's business. And so like really the denial of food started wearing away. Yeah, it just then became more of a celebration of, of taste and flavor and her being really successful in, in being a cook. And so it just became less important to fit into white culture because we finally had something that we could do with each other that we could like celebrate as a family.
Virgie: [09:19] Yeah, I mean, I really relate to, um, parts of what you're talking about. I think in my house diet culture and restriction was about assimilating into whiteness and Americanness, like American ways of eating. And also I don't think I'd ever really realized it until you just said it, that fitting in is about being small – whether it's your energy or your passion or your love or how you eat or your body you know, we're expected to shave these things down. And that it's a hundred percent connected to survival.
Vishinna: [09:54] Yes. Even how you speak and when you laugh or enjoy life, you know, you have to do it quietly, you know?
Virgie: [10:01] Yes, absolutely. And I'm kind of curious, right, like what was happening as you were transitioning from this person who was a little bit, you know, trying to fit in, to someone who was on this amazing beach cruiser with, with baguettes and creme brulee. Like, did you have an artistic practice and how did that shift when you started to sort of make that shift in your own life?
Vishinna: [10:29] Ooh. So I, I feel like first it was going to punk shows to be honest. Like I came from a household of folks who loved gangster rap and R&B and gospel music and all this stuff. So just even going to a space where the music was so different was already a big change in my life.
But I loved it. Like, “Okay, cool. I'm going to step out of the archetype that I've seen in front of me. I want to experience bumping into a bunch of people at a show and moshing. I want to experience like being on stage and, and screaming about my experiences. I want to be able to create in all of these different ways.”
So, I really just started going to shows, and then one of the shows I'd gone to was this band Needy Evie, um, and Audrey – the drummer for Fatty Cakes now – was the drummer in that band. And truly I fell in love.
It was an all girl band. They were playing like punk and indie music. They were taking up a space that, it was, it – the lineup was nothing but men and them, you know? And, you know, I would stand toward the back, you know, cause I kind of didn't want to like disrupt. Even at that moment, I was still diminishing myself, you know. Even then at first I was still trying to be the Black girl in the back so that I wasn't picked out, but I just fell in love with watching them play.
I needed that space. I just, I felt so empowered seeing another Black person taking up space in this, in this world that again was never afforded to us. So I just kept watching them, watching them. I was like, “Ooh, I'm going to get in a band that's all women. We're going to do it. This is going to be so much fun.”
And that just changed my whole life.
Virgie: [12:19] Yes! Yes. I mean, I, I'm sort of curious if like, for you, like, what does your creative practice like? I mean, I'm curious about that – you're talking about how it emerged at the same time as you sort of made these decisions to stop trying to fit into certain molds. Like what role did diet culture and your relationship to food play in that?
Vishinna: [12:40] Ooh. So, um, just in general, starting to play music really helped me, um, just evolve into body acceptance in general into all – like all the way into body love and positivity. Um, which is, I feel like what Fatty Cakes is right now.
But just the start of music in general. My first band, they put me in the front. I was the lead, and I had never played my instrument before. I had never been the lead before. And so, um, taking up that space really helped me to see myself fully and to experience my body and, and other people viewing me without judgment. And even being excited, you know. Like people were so supportive. I just really grew into like loving and performing fatness, like with Fatty Cakes, for sure. And so I really, I feel like Fatty Cakes is the culmination of riding my bike and playing in a band and working at a bakery and finding, finding love through my relationships with my friends.
Um, like passing out pizza while we sing “Pizza Girlfriend,” and having a food fight with you, Virgie, while we did “Fat Girl Tears,” and doing all of the creative things around being a fat person has, I don't know, just really like evolved me. I feel like I'm at my full Charmander, you know?
Virgie: [14:21] Full Charmander! Yes!
<BREAK>
Vishinna: [14:38] Yeah, passing out pizza was like, to me was already the most exciting and fun and inventive way to talk about eating food in public and being yourself at the buffet and yeah, just truly living in the moment.
Virgie: [14:54] Ah, I love that. Can you talk a little bit more about “being yourself at the buffet”?
Vishinna: [15:00] Yes. So that is one of my favorite Fatty Cakes lines: be yourself at the buffet. ‘Cause you know, I don't know if you've experienced – well, I'm sure you have experienced this, first of all. People will watch you eat if you are a fat person. If you are at a buffet, and you fill up your plate, they look at you, you know, they're like, “Hmm.” You know, like there's so much judgment around you.
And so being yourself at the buffet is so important. I want you to see me have fun and enjoy this life because I should. I have every right, you know? And so it feels good to, to carry that sentiment, you know. And I think of that every time we go out, like every time I go do something for myself, every time I want to eat, like I will go in because that's what I want to do. And I want to live this life enjoying this body, enjoying my taste buds. And I want to experience all my senses, right.
I want people to hear that you can live that life, you know? ‘Cause it took so long for me to get there. It took years. It, it took going through being in bands with men and not really having a space to talk about my femininity, my queerness, my fatness, my Blackness, you know. Um, it took all of that to get to where I am right now. And I, I just want those steps to be so much, so much shorter for people, you know, like I want it to be so much quicker to get to that point of seeing yourself as worthy and, and beautiful, you know?
Virgie: [16:34] Ugh, yes. I think there's, there really is a power in – because for the most part the people we see on stage are the people who the culture tells us we're supposed to be like. Um…
Vishinna: [16:47] Absolutely. Yeah.
Virgie: [16:34] …And so often they’re thin people, often they're white people, often they're straight people and cis people and able bodied people. And I think there is that extraordinary power when you see someone who sort of quote-unquote, maybe like doesn't quite fit in the picture.
It's so powerful. It's so intoxicating because it really is like that sense of, you know, who gets to have all eyes on them? Who gets to have that moment where people are inspired by them? And I think it's very disruptive when that's a fat person or a Black person or a queer person. And I that's, that's, I feel like that's what you're talking about.
Vishinna: [17:24] Yes, the representation. It is really about the representation because to see somebody break out of that mold is so powerful that it is inspiring. Like, and really just to watch somebody who you assume shouldn't be in that space create movement in that space – like literal movement – people are stoked. Running around, cheering, bouncing off each other, like loving each other, picking each other up when they fall.
Like watching folks be in this community because of this person who's breaking the mold is so… it's fire! It's literal fire inside of you, you know?
It just made it so that I needed to, I needed to be there. And I wanted to do that too. I wanted other people to see this fat body, this Black person talk about how this political world is fucked up. How racism and Nazis are fucked up. You know, like I want people to see this fat Black body talk about how working at the mall sucks! You know?
It just is important. It’s important. And it goes back to that feeling of taking these big leaps instead of baby steps that I felt like I took. For instance, we played this show in Fresno. It's like a, kind of like a bigger show. It's called Grizzly Fest here. And my niece who was probably six at the time was so excited that I got to be on this stage. And so we actually invited her up on the stage with us for that show. So she brought like a cute little ukulele, and she had this whole outfit planned, you know. Like she, she got to be in the limelight, and like, it just, it touched me so much because, again, if I was her age, and I got to see that, like it would have changed my life. And I just, I just love that I can be a part of that for other people, you know.
Virgie: [19:15] Yes, yes. So, Vishinna, one of Fatty Cakes and the Puff Pastries, you know, absolute most iconic songs is “Fat Girl Tears.”
CLIP: [19:26] I’m crying fat girl tears / Because you hate what you fear / And you fear a body like mine / So I’m just gonna keep on crying
Virgie: [19:41] Can you tell us a little bit about, tell us a little about the song? What story is “Fat Girl Tears” weaving? What’s the background? Tell me a little about the process.
Vishinna: [19:52] Ooh, so “Fat Girl Tears,” um, Amber wrote the lyrics for “Fat Girl Tears” about being fat in the world, and, um, people fearing having a fat body like yours, you know? Living through that trauma of not being accepted in this world yet still having and loving this body. And instead of fighting to change, to make yourself small or diminish yourself, like we talked about before, you would cry it out and then go on living!
Virgie: [20:24] Yes!
CLIP: [20:29] And in my dreams / I’m on candy-coated clouds / I float high above the city / My tears rain down / Blue, green, and gold / Never seen a sight so pretty
Virgie: [20:57] Who came up with the idea to have a food fight for the music video?
Vishinna: [21:03] Okay. So that was a collective effort because we all were trying to figure out like, what should we do for this video? We know we want to have all of these iconic fat activists or iconic artists. And, um, we even had like Kezia Harrell and Jasmine Leiva. Like, we just had all of these people who do work in activism. And so we were like, “Cool, so what are we going to do with all these fun people?”
And then I think during a practice, we were all like, “Oh my god. We should have a food fight! It's going to be so much fun!”
And it truly was. Like, we went in. It was so, so much fun.
Oh, I just remember, um, Craig Calderwood – she's an amazing artist in San Francisco – I remember her throwing a full hamburger, and it sticking to my belly. Like!
Virgie: [21:51] Ah!
Vishinna: [21:56] It was so, just the, just the most amazing experience. Because what kid in the world, like doesn't want to have a food fight with their friends, you know? Like who doesn't have that dream at some point, you know?
Virgie: [22:07] Absolutely. Yeah. Like that's, like the food fight is one of the most iconic cinematic kid movie moments. And I feel like it…
Vishinna: [22:16] yeah.
Virgie: [22:17] …never happens in real life. I mean, I grew up sort of always hoping that moment was about to happen and it never did.
Vishinna: [22:25] Yes.
Virgie: [22:26] So to like live it out in my thirties was such a treat. Oh!
Vishinna: [22:32] Yeah, that was the moment I will never forget. And we actually, also at the end we tried to take photos of ourselves, and we're just like sliding around on all this food on the ground.
Virgie: [22:44] Yes. The whole thing was just so powerful for so many reasons, but like, you know, to have all like all these fat bodied people dancing to begin with, right. Like being in a music video. Wow. And then.
Vishinna: [22:57] Yeah.
Virgie: [22:58] And then you've got all of these foods, like specifically that are sort of quote-unquote “off limits” for fat people who are expected to always be dieting and always be restricting food. And certainly you're not allowed to, you know, enjoy it, let alone in public, let alone throw it at people on film. And it was just like the rule-breaking gorgeousness of that. It was just so incredible.
Vishinna: [23:22] Yes. Yes. I love that idea too of “off limit” foods. Like, oh my gosh. So many of those things like, um, creme brulee was like that for me. That was one of those things. It was off limits because it's super quote, unquote “fatty” foods. It's, it's expensive. It's like all of the things.
Virgie: [23:39] Yes. I mean it was just like, I felt like it was like a fat utopia. Like I feel like, I don't know, I mean, I'm realizing that I think that, I think we have this idea, um, that food and eating are kind of this – they're utilitarian. So they can't be part of a creative practice. They can't, but I'm like realizing as I'm talking to you that food and eating are a hundred percent also part of a creative practice.
What do you think? True or false? True or false???
Vishinna: [24:07] Oh my God. Yes! Yes. Um, yes. First of all, I love watching folks eat. I love being in the space where I am feeding them the delicious food. Like, it really is this, this full sensory, like amalgam of creativity and, and nourishment, it is art. Food is art.
Virgie: [24:32] Oh, that's incredible. I mean, I'm curious, right? Like you're talking about that journey from literally the back of the room to now you're onstage eating pizza at shows and screaming and singing and you're front and center. You know, I'm curious, like, have you arrived? Like what is next for you?
Vishinna: [24:52] I want to keep going. I want to travel the world. Like I would love to play this music in other countries. Um, I actually like, for the, I don't know if you, you get to see those things, but at, um, at the end of the year, Spotify does those things of like, “You've touched this many countries” or “Your music has been played in these places,” right?
So each year I love doing this, like, end of the year thing, so I can see where we have been played. And some countries are so like, anti-gay and very fat phobic still, you know, living in a, in a space again, where I felt like I lived as a kid. And to, think of, “Fuck You And Your Neo Nazi Friends” or “Fat Girl Tears” being played in spaces like that is what I've always wanted.
So yeah, there is this feeling of, yes. I've arrived. I've arrived in this body. I've arrived in this consciousness. Um, I'm even seeing the effect on other people, you know. I actually cried with a fan at a show. We just talked about trauma and, and abuse and stuff. And how, when we were younger, we, we went through those things and how this music that I'm playing now makes them feel empowered. And that empowered me even more, you know. Like at first, this music was just to help me heal, us heal as, as friends, you know. Like we were just going through things in life and we wanted to talk about it, right. And so I really feel like seeing that the music that we use to heal is now healing other people does make me feel like, “Oh my gosh, this is it.” This is what it's like, right? Like, this is what, this is why anybody would want when they create is to be able to touch somebody.
So yeah, I do have this feeling of, yes, I've arrived. But I also have this feeling of like, let's keep going. I love it.
Virgie: [26:45] Yes.
Vishinna: [26:47] Let's go. And I would never have imagined at all, I would never have imagined that this is what my life would be like when I was that girl on that bike, you know. Like I could never, never have imagined that this is where we would be. So yeah.
Virgie: [27:05] Oh, I mean, it's just, it's like, I mean, that sense of possibility. I don't know. It's just so beautiful.
Like, for the person who maybe is creatively inclined and is just like, “I can't, I can't be broke. I can't be that creative person in this body.” What would you tell them? Like what, what's the tool that you would want to give them?
Vishinna: [27:27] Oh, that looking at life through other people's lenses is never ever going to work. You have to do what makes you feel good in the moment because sometimes that thing that made you feel good in that moment is going to make someone else feel good, is going to feel like healing to you even, is going to get you to where you never knew you could go because you're living in your truth in your body in that second, you know?
I felt like I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what my future would look like with the lens of other folks. And it was just such a setback. It was such a creative stunter, you know. Like you just really can't, you can't function in that, you know?
And so, yeah, I would, I would absolutely say that – I know everyone says this, but be true to yourself. Be true to your creative process. Even if you feel like no one's going to understand. Like, it's not about them. It's about you expressing who you are in that moment. Because to look back, like, to look back on the art that you make before, like before you knew what you know now, before you’re the person you are now is that healing.
So I would, just say, “Please don't stop doing what makes you feel good in this time. Because it will get you so much further so much faster to live in your own truth and in your own body.”
Virgie: [28:52] Vishinna, thank you so much for being on the show. Um, it's been such a pleasure getting to talk with you.
Vishinna: [28:59] Oh, you too! Thank you so much for having me. This is wonderful. Thank you for this delicious creme brulee. I'm living. Um, I'm going to go record today and think about ya!
Virgie: [29:10] Oh my God! I love that. Thank you.
Virgie: [29:22] Vishinna! Ah! I'm in love with her. I know you are too. Vishinna, thank you for existing.
Okay. So just to recap: Vishinna taught us the importance of displaying French pastries as you cruise blissfully around town, how much fun food fights can be, the power of seeing bodies like yours front and center, and how friendship and art can save your life.
What did you think? What's your version of Vishinna's bass? What are the practices that help remind you that you deserve more than diet culture? Reach out. DM me on socials @virgietovar, DM our producers @transmitterpods. Shoot us a message at rebeleatersclub@gmail.com.
Rebel Eaters Club is brought to you by Transmitter Media. This episode was written and produced by Isabel Carter. Sarah Nics is Transmitter’s executive editor. Wilson Sayre is our managing producer, and Gretta Cohn is our executive producer. And I'm your host Virgie Tovar. Rick Kwan is our mix engineer. Thanks to Taka Yasuzawa who wrote some of the music we use in this episode. And special thanks to Fatty Cakes & the Puff Pastries for permission to use their music in this episode. You can find them and buy their albums at fattycakes.bandcamp.com.
If you love Rebel Eaters Club, tell your friends and share the love by writing a review on your favorite podcast app.
See you next week!