S3 E5: Horny For Healing: Body Positive Dating Advice
Virgie talks with disability justice advocate Alex Locust (aka Glamputee) about dating and intimacy. They discuss what fat liberation and disability justice teach us about interdependence, and Alex shares why they have started saying they're "horny for healing."
Journal with us! In this episode, Alex teaches us that every person has needs. Hiding our needs in hopes of receiving love or acceptance is something we've all been taught to do, but what if we all felt worthy enough to name and defend them? Unapologetically write out what your needs are - from emotional to physical. After each need, write a quick line about how you might express this need to another person. Then, print out the "Permission Slip to Exist Exactly As You Are" from Virgie's new book, The Body Positive Journal. Fill it out and post it somewhere as a reminder.
Virgie Tovar: [00:02] From Transmitter Media, this is Rebel Eaters Club. And I’m your host Virgie Tovar! My next guest is a disability justice advocate, a Leo, and an all around babe. Their name is Alex Locust. Alex is a self-described “queer, Black, biracial glamputee proudly offering you a *leg up* on disability justice.”
Today we’ll be getting into something I’ve wanted to cover for a while… dating and intimacy! And I’m so excited to do it with Alex in particular because they have helped me think so many new thoughts about this topic ever since we were introduced by a friend who said we were gonna connect like milk and cookies!
Welcome Alex!
Alex Locust: [00:45] Hey Virgie! I don't think I had the milk and cookies part of our meet cute, but I'm really loving that.
Virgie Tovar: [00:52] I am a little bit embellishing, but I basically feel like they said, “I have a feeling that you might connect,” and it's just been like giggles and teehees ever since.
Alex Locust: [01:03] It's a giggle fest.
Virgie Tovar: [01:08] Yes! Okay. So. Before we get started, before we get into it, we have some snacks. Alex, why did you pick this snack for us today?
Alex Locust: [01:16] Um, you were like, what's your favorite snack? Immediately my mind went to like guava and cheese pastelitos. I spent a lot of time living in Miami, and those were like such a treasure. And I, I haven't been able to really find ones that I super love, but then I had this amazing snack, this guava lime tart that a new friend Salimatu made for his project Black Feast. And it just is like, not only like one of the most delicious things that I’ve eaten recently, but it just really I feel like embodies what I feel like food can represent.
Food as medicine, food as activism, food as like community building, you know what Salimatu and Annika are doing with Black Feast. You know, it's a food art event, celebrating black artists and writers through culinary interpretations of their work, right. And so like to get to eat this, like love that a Black queer person created for the community. Um I was like, I want to share this with Virgie because it just like takes me there. You know?
Virgie Tovar: [02:28] Oh, I love that story so much. So we're having lime guava tarts made by Black Feast, and I'm stoked. Are you ready to try?
Alex Locust: [02:38] I'm like, I already put my fork and I was like, when do we go?
Virgie Tovar: [02:43] We go now. Okay. 3, 2, 1. Mm, mm, mm!
Alex Locust: [02:54] Yup.
Virgie Tovar: [02:55] Mm!
Alex Locust: [02:56] Wow.
Virgie Tovar: [02:57] Mm. So the guava, I mean, this is true of tropical fruit in general. It’s just so good. Like it's tangy and you can just taste the sun or something. I don't know. You know?
Alex Locust: [03:11] Yeah, I was just going to say sun. It feels, it's guava lime and there's maple meringue, it's sweet. It's tart, it's a triumph.
Virgie Tovar: [03:21] Yes. The meringue has almost like a pearlescent sheen and, and then you get down. So that's the first layer. There's also like a beautiful little, an edible flower on top for a little bit of flourish. And then you get into the pinky guava, the next layer. And then the layer after that is like shredded coconut. And is it graham cracker? What is it?
Alex Locust: [03:47] I really wish I could tell you. I feel like if I eat more of it to find out, I'm just going to get lost, and you're going to lose me. I'll be gone. I'm just fully taken by this dessert.
Virgie Tovar: [04:01] I love it. Well, some kind of crust. It has a coconuttiness to it, which I love.
Alex Locust: [04:05] Like, I really feel confident that I'm not hyping it up too much.
Virgie Tovar: [04:11] Um, Alex, thank you for like bringing this dessert into my world and for introducing me to Black Feast. I'm just stoked. Um, as I said, you're a disability justice advocate. You run an amazing workshop called “Spill the DisabiliTea,” where people can learn about the movement and how they can participate in it. Under COVID, it's also become an Instagram Live series called “Sippin’ Saturdays,” where you're continuing to spread the good word about access.
I think there's a lot of overlap between the disability justice and fat liberation movements. One that you and I have talked a lot about is dating and intimacy. Like in my mind, diet culture and the dating status quo are sneaky cousins. Can you talk about how that shows up in your work?
Alex Locust: [04:57] Yeah. I feel like ableism is a sneaky cousin in there, you know? It's still communicating, which bodies are desirable, which bodies are worthy. There's a lot of like moralism. I think that overlaps between diet culture and ableism, right, around this like false belief that people within the medical industrial complex know best about your body. Um, and if you're not adhering to these standards that are often like racist and sexist and fatphobic and all of these things that like you're not doing your body right.
Virgie Tovar: [05:40] Right! And building off that idea of which bodies are desirable… Something you’ve said to me about dating that I love is that the way we do dating and intimacy right now in mainstream society is all about being casual, being “chill,” being low maintenance, and basically not having any needs. Can you unpack this?
Alex Locust: [06:03] Whew! Yeah. I mean, I almost imagine, like, this is so specific, but like, um, if you roll up aluminum foil and you like buff it in a ball, like you just keep buffing it, you can actually create almost this like perfect sphere. And it's just like smooth and like edgeless.
And I think a lot about how like early dating or this like performance around like being like cool and easy and like, you're texting me ten minutes before you want to hang out and expect me to come. Like, yeah, I'm available. You cancel on me ten minutes before our date. And I'm already at the restaurant. Oh, no worries. Like something came up, right. Like all of these things are kind of ways that I feel like it's like sanding that aluminum ball to be like, I have no like edges. There's no way for me to like cut or harm you. I'm so easy to like fit into whatever situation is being foist upon me.
And it's like at what cost? You know, like when do you get what you need? When do your needs get met? When do you get to also experience like nourishment and healing and, um, support? And I, again, I just, I want to dismantle or like disrupt this binary of like, “Disabled people are the ones with needs. Disabled people have to conform.”
I feel like I spent so much of my early dating, particularly, feeling like I had to compensate for being disabled. You know? Like I'm lucky that this like hot person is willing to go on this date with me, right.
Virgie Tovar: [07:44] I relate! Hard relate. Yes
Alex Locust: [07:47] Whoo. You know, and it's, I, for me reflecting on it for this conversation, it's like those -- almost as like, uh, it feels like, like Greek, like myth level of like cosmic irony of like being an amputee. I'm living in a society that like literally sees my body as, as lacking, right. As like I am at a deficit, like I'm missing, not just a limb, but I'm missing part of my wholeness, my whole self.
And so I, I had this understanding or this assumption that like I had to then make up for that – what was missing, right. So I have to be even more available. I have to be even more casual and fun and easy. And you know, what's missing from that equation. It, it assumes that non-disabled people, you know, people with four limbs, like four limbers, right. I don't know if you have a disabili-
Virgie Tovar: [08:43] Four limbers! Yes.
Alex Locust: [08:45] You know, it's like, it's, it's this assumption that I'm the one who's supposed to compensate. And then I'm dating people who like aren't in a place to like name their needs, or aren't asking me about mine. People who don't have some of that, like emotional magic and like capacity for like deep listening and intimacy and care that I have, right?
Virgie Tovar: [09:09] Yeah, I mean, I relate to this as a fat woman. Um, and I think specifically I'm thinking a lot about how much I tried to hide my body, which is just so, it's just so absurd actually, right? Like, I mean, I was an early adopter of internet dating because I was fat shamed so relentlessly, and I really relished the opportunity to be able to hide my body. And I fully subscribed to this idea that I could like trick someone into falling in love with me. You know, because there's no way that they could like my body, there was no way they could enjoy it.
I'd have to like dupe somebody into falling in love with my personality, which of course I had like worked so hard on to be extra charming and extra smart and have a, you know, a huge vocabulary and all of these kinds of things that were meant to make up for what I understood as, you know, uh, like a societal deficit, a privilege deficit, you know? And that sense of coming hat in hand to any exchange is so humiliating.
Alex Locust: [10:14] Oof. Yeah. I mean you, for you to use the word “dupe” like you're, you're using words that I've used literally to describe, like, when I came out, when I was dating in Miami, you know, I was on Grindr and OkCupid. And on OkCupid, I'm like, “Okay, so my understanding of this website is that like people are seeking like dating, right. They want to like go on dates. They want to get to know people.”
And so my, my thinking there was like, none of my pictures, you could see that I was an amputee. I'm like, you know, you want to get to know me as a person, then it shouldn't matter what my body looks like. And so I would kind of like not show that. And then I would, I would disclose like before the date, like, “By the way, I'm an amputee,” and I would ask people, I'd be like, “Is that okay with you?” Right.
And with Grindr, I'm like, well, if you're just trying to fuck, then I'm down. My body's ready. And if you just want to have casual sex then it shouldn't matter what I look like either, and still would do that like, “I'm gonna roll up to your house in like an hour… Also I'm an amputee, is that okay?”
That kind of like asking for permission. You know, it, it's really like weighs on my heart that I used to offer people that opportunity to deny me. And then also to your point, like I think that trying to control our bodies or our body-minds to appear more desirable. It's like this fallacy of like, well, if I approximate the identities in power, right? If I appear less disabled, if I, you know, if I like perform thinness, if I, if I do these things that make people more comfortable, then I'll experience less violence, then people will find me more desirable.
And it's just, it's such a, a trap because it's like, if you succeed at that, if that works, then you have to maintain that to stay desirable, which means you're just contorting in a relationship where you're supposed to be able to be present and yourself and authentic, whether it's like casual sex or like a deep partnership.
And then if it fails, right. If people see through it, if people tire of it, if people – you know, I've had situations where I'm like dressed the most flamboyantly I've ever been dressed and situations where I'm dressed real casual, and both times people have hurled like violent microaggressions at me. So it doesn't matter what I'm wearing, how I'm dressed, how I behave, I'm still in an ableist society.
And like, I just, I feel, I've been joking with friends that I'm like horny for healing. I feel like I'm like, it's like, I, I want, I want connections that feel like they're like fertile soil for my liberation work. I have a lot of unlearning to do. I have, I've had very hard lessons in the past couple of years where I have to reckon with ways that I have been complicit with these systems that I'm trying to dismantle.
I can't just go out and, you know, speak the good word about things that I'm not living myself. And I think ultimately in, in my perspective, I can, I can hole up in my room and have this be a sanctuary and I can read everything and I can listen to everything and I can consume all of this amazing, um, content that's out there. I have to be able to put it into practice, and a lot of that is in relationship.
And so I want relationships that promote that kind of healing for myself. And reciprocal healing, right. I don't want to just use people for healing. I want to be there for other people. I'm with partners who express self-consciousness in their bodies and I'm like, “I get it, you know, and I want, I want to help offer a space where you can feel sexy and hot unconditionally, just the way that I see you and the way that I feel seen by you.”
Um, and that doesn't just have to be sexual partners that can be friends, that can be, you know, a community, all of these kinds of things. Like the more that we orient towards like healing, liberatory relationships, right. Like trying to tear these systems down rather than like our individual liberation. It's it, it propagates. It, it kind of like builds off of itself for, for everyone's freedom.
Virgie Tovar: [14:45] Oh, yes. I mean, Alex, horny for healing, um, 2022. Yeah. Horny for healing for president. Um, I'm wondering, Alex, can you talk about that transition from a person who was like hiding and disclosing, you know, disclosing your disability an hour before a date and asking for permission to someone who's horny for healing?
Alex Locust: [15:07] I mean, what a, what a transition talk about character development. I'm really proud of her.
Horny for healing is, uh, rooted in like all of this, this work. You know, growing, healing, uh, committing to liberation. Like it is a like daily practice. I feel like I have to be like a devotee to this pursuit. And so like therapy, being in community with other people who are healing, art. Art has been so healing to me.
I've gotten to be in like several drag performances during the pandemic. I got to perform with a choreographer to the song “Midas Touch.” And like I'm in the music video in like all purple, you know, cropped bolero with like big shoulder pads and flowy pants. And I'm like, kind of giving you some like Prince, you know, genderqueer, like furry realness. And it's like, these are things that I had to like really commit to, and, and find people who supported that and then support them in kind.
And like, I think that's how I've gotten to this place of seeking those kinds of like liberatory relationships. Like, I feel like I'm like coming into like non-binary identity because of non-binary and like trans babes in my life who've held space for these kinds of explorations and, uh, like love, you know, and care.
So I think anytime you can find people in your life that like see you and all of you, like those are the people that I would, I would say you should ride hard for because like that's where my healing has, has truly stemmed from. So, yeah.
Virgie Tovar: [16:54] Totally!
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Virgie Tovar: [17:08] Access is a big part of the work that Alex does. It's a central idea within disability justice work, so I wanted to ask Alex to break it down for me.... Can you tell me a bit about what access is? Like what does it mean to you, Alex?
Alex Locust: [17:25] What a question? How do I define access? I mean, access from a very like functional, maybe, you know, ADA legalese like compliance space is like, there are certain physical things that are required for disabled people to access spaces, right. You know, sign language interpreters, ramps and elevators for people who use wheelchairs or people with mobility challenges, right.
There's also access around, um, is, is your event near public transportation, right? Is there, um, daycare, right? Are there people with kids, can they access that space in the same way the other people can, right?
So I think when we start to expand access, not to just like zoom in on this binary of, “Are you disabled or are you not?” But again, thinking about everybody benefits from access, you know, so I think access just really is like, how do you in your body-mind like, what are your needs to be able to be present in a space and be able to like enjoy equally or even equitably, rather than just focusing on like disabled people have, you know, the quote “special needs,” right?
Virgie Tovar: [18:39] Yes. I mean, this is one of the things that I feel like I've honestly learned from you, though it's so obvious, but again, I think there is that, there's that sort of – the normative framework is an actually an ableist framework. But I mean, the idea, the idea that access is only needed for a very small group of people who are somehow, you know, asking for something extra, expanding the notion of access to every single person, every single body, every single mind needs access in fact.
Alex Locust: [19:15] Yep. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, I think the – The way that I've been trying to shift away from, because I don't like how it feels or like sits on my spirit is, you know, there's kind of this like morbid joke around disability that like, you know, if you have the privilege of growing old enough, like you will become disabled at some point in your life, right.
It's like we have a relationship to our bodies where we understand the future of other people's bodies, right. We understand what other people may and/or will experience at some point in their lives. And so turning to that wisdom around access around interdependence, right, all of that benefits everybody.
And so then when we're thinking, like you said about all body-minds being able to access things, you know, having chairs that are accessible to fat people is not like a special need. That's just making sure that everybody who comes in, regardless of how you look, or, you know, how big you are, like that you can also participate.
And I just, I often see that framing of like “special needs,” of honing in on marginalized bodies often is irrespective of the fact that like anybody can become disabled. And so if you treat it as like an us/them, like really you're ignoring the fact that like time's a'tickin', you know. Uh, especially society in a culture that's really violent.
Virgie Tovar: [20:50] Yeah, absolutely. I mean what I love Alex, that you are not only critical of the dating status quo, but you are also what I might call a Venusian visionary. Um, specifically, uh, you talk about dating from an access perspective. And honestly, I think this is the key to the romance revolution, right?
Because I mean, when you think about it, access is just about admitting and accepting that humans have human bodies. Um, and I think what's really wild about this is, you know, this seems obvious, but actually we're still in this age of like scientific materialism, which is the idea that our body is just a machine. And food is just fuel, and our muscles and our bones and all that are just pulleys and, you know, a series of complicated mechanics. And I'm really curious, what you think, Alex, what is wrong – let's define the problem! What is wrong with the current dating climate, the romance industrial complex, if you will. Can you give us a breakdown from an access perspective? Go.
Alex Locust: [22:06] Just lay it out real quick. I, wow. I would say that your, your reference to this, like bodies as machines, right, or like robots is a huge piece of the puzzle. One of the ten principles of disability justice that Patty Byrne proposed is anti-capitalism.
And, you know, anti-capitalism not just around, you know, like deconstructing the violence of capitalism, but interrogating how we deem bodies who produce, right, as more worthy or produce more as more worthy. And so when disabled bodies, because of the environments that we're in, like literally cannot access the same amounts of like productivity nor maybe have the desire to, then those people are deemed as like less worthy.
And so I think that plays out in dating in this very strange way where it's like this like double standard, right. We have these like romcoms and these big sweeping romances and in movies and TV and literature that are all about like the tenderness about these like grand sweeping gestures around, you know, the extravagance of trying to like sweep someone off their feet.
But if we say that like people who have needs are less valuable because having needs means you can produce less, when disabled people like share their access needs or have access needs – or anyone has access needs – it creates this like inappropriate burden, I think, in some ways that people date and connect.
And it's, it's really unfortunate because I think when we interrogate that, when we dismantle that, when we demand that everyone's access needs are attended to, I think that's where – those are the sites of like the most, for me, the most tenderness, the most intimacy, the hottest sex, the most sustainable partnerships, lovers, like connections that I've had. And so it's, it's disheartening to see that like all of this performance really gets in the way of the connections that people are actually desiring.
Virgie Tovar: [24:24] Oh, I love this. I mean, going back to… it takes work. It takes bravery. It takes, you know, all these things, right. I think what you're proposing is so beautiful and also it can be terrifying.
Like I just, I remember for years I was not in a place where I could be witnessed, like it actively upset me to be witnessed and I couldn't be in partnership with people who were willing to witness me. And so I think one of the biggest tragedies – and we talk about this, you know, on the podcast a lot – is like most of us are born with this innate ability to do these things, to connect, to, you know, eat in a way that feels good and right. Um, you know, all of these things. And then we're kind of going back to the metaphor of this, you know, ball that’s smoothed down, um, there's sort of these forces, these cultural forces that just sort of shave us down and shave us down and shave us down. How can you call that anything besides trauma? Like that's absolutely oppression. That's absolutely right – and yet a lot of us are operating from that place and trying to make things work from a thing that is pretty broken.
I mean, like do you have any advice for the person who's like, you know what, I'm sick of being in this cycle. I'm having a really hard time taking that like first step out. Do you have ideas about what that first step might be?
Alex Locust: [25:43] Hm. I know for me something that hit hard at the beginning and like I'm still navigating is the reality that when you enter into the church of disability justice, right, when you like say, you know, “I'm singing the gospel, like this is something that is a north star for me. This is how I'm orienting in my relationships moving forward.” You kind of can't, you can't turn back from that, you know?
And so then when you are in conversations with people, whether it's like just friends hearing the way that they talk about dating or the way that you pursue your own dating life, like once you know how to embody liberation at least like theoretically, right. You kind of, can't go back on that.
And so it is really hard to then realize like addressing it can create, you know – people can respond defensively, people can respond violently. Um, and so it's really, I think that one of the first steps is shoring up your resources and, and preparing to like engage with this lifelong journey because what you then become is a mirror for people to see the ways that they are perpetuating ableism, and people do not respond well when they are encountered with how they're perpetuating oppression, you know? And so just kind of like bracing, uh, for that.
And I think understanding that there may be a transition of like, because of how connecting with people who are not interrogating these things might've felt quote “easier,” you know, like we've had this whole conversation today around like this like alleged ease of like dating and sex and intimacy that a lot of people perform. And so it can feel like, “Oh, now all of my connections are harder or people are more off put by the way that I'm presenting.” But it's like, that's because those people aren't also doing the work, those people aren't in alignment with how you are now navigating the world.
And so just like understanding that you, you will probably – I experienced kind of like a shedding. You're emerging from this chrysalis, and, and part of that process is painful.
It's, it's hard to realize that people you really care about people you're really attracted to people who may have provided you a lot of support and care also were doing so conditionally upon the conceit that like we don't interrogate our body-minds and access needs and the ways that we're like perpetuating harm. And that I know for me was a hard transition. And it's still hard to reckon with today if I'm like, “Oh, I really like this connection for these reasons, but I can tell this person doesn't do X, Y, and Z, right.” Um, and how do you, how do you square that?
Virgie Tovar: [28:32] Ah, wow. Shedding. That's an amazing tool.
I mean, there's so many things you've taught me that I kind of want to, I kind of want to share with Rebel Eaters. I'm thinking specifically about turning sexy on its head, right? You know, why like, why can't it be sexy when we say this or we ask this? Can you offer some, like, you know, projecting into the future of like a world where we're not living in a love pyramid scheme, um, you know, what is sexy? What are those sexy whispers pillow talks? What might that look like?
Alex Locust: [29:08] I mean, you know, I've felt so cared for by people in my life when like they witness a microaggression in public, um, and like check in on me immediately, you know? Um, I think that that is like sexy in the broader term of like, I feel so cared for, you know, that I didn't have to say to my friend, “Hey, like that was really painful. I don't feel good in my body right now.” You know, like that they just like jump and know, like, “My friend has been harmed and like what do they need?”
Um, and I, I think that kind of pillow talk can happen of like, you know, “what do you want to do today? How can I, how can I provide you care? Like, do you want breakfast in bed? Do you want me to like, go out and get it? We can order in.” Like any of those kinds of things aren't just about, are you disabled or are you not? It's like, what do you want, what are you looking for? And what, how can I make this like a hot ass day for you? I think that's all, all very sexy. you know, we're horny for healing so if that's something you're into slide in my DMs. I'm ready.
Virgie Tovar: [30:19] Ah! Yay.
Virgie Tovar: [30:25] Alex, thank you so much for talking with me. This has been absolutely incredible.
Alex Locust: [30:29] Thank you for all your work, Virgie. I just, I love this podcast. I love you. I love the work that you're doing. It's a real honor to be here.
Virgie Tovar: [30:53] Wow. Well, I'm definitely horny for healing. Are you? Reach out and let us know your dating gripes, romance horror stories, and/or your hacks for finding love in the intimacy pyramid scheme. DM us on Instagram @transmitterpods, or email us at rebeleatersclub@gmail.com.
You can find more of Alex's work on social media @glamputee on Instagram. And if you want to support Black Feast so they can keep making yummy guava lime tarts, find them on Instagram @black.feast.
Rebel Eaters Club is brought to you by Transmitter Media. This episode was written and produced by Isabel Carter. Sarah Nics is Transmitter’s executive editor. Wilson Sayre is our managing producer, and Gretta Cohn is our executive producer. And I'm your host Virgie Tovar. Rick Kwan is our mix engineer, and thanks to Taka Yasuzawa who wrote some of the music we use in the show.
If you love Rebel Eaters Club, tell your friends and share the love by writing a review on your favorite podcast app.
See you next week!