S3 E4: Trails Not Scales with Fat Girls Hiking
Virgie and Summer Michaud-Skog talk about fat erasure from fitness spaces, the new (fat positive!) rules of hiking, and the simple joy of petting moss.
Journal with us! In this episode, Summer teaches us that we can turn to nature to see our bodies reflected. Here’s a prompt from Virgie's new book, The Body Positive Journal, that encourages us to imagine ourselves as nature itself: If I were a plant, I’d be… [Click here to for a drawing exercise for your journal]
Virgie Tovar: [00:01] From Transmitter Media. This is Rebel Eaters Club, and I'm your host Virgie Tovar.
Today we are going to be talking about something super fun, super exciting, and a little bit sweaty… It's hiking! Um, joining me is Summer Michaud-Skog. Summer is the founder of Fat Girls Hiking, a collective for all types of people and all types of bodies to get excited about nature and movement. She's also the author of a new book also called Fat Girls Hiking.
True to form, Summer called in from a yurt in rural Oregon, surrounded by the sounds of wind and dogs and the occasional truck.
Summer, welcome to Rebel Eaters Club!
Summer Michaud-Skog: [00:43] Thank you for having me, Virgie! I'm super excited to be talking to you.
Virgie Tovar: [00:48] Me too. Me too. Same. Um, okay. So in, in Rebel Eaters Club, uh, sort of fashion or tradition, we start with a snack. Um, do you want to tell us what the snack is, Summer?
Summer: [00:59] Yes! Um, so my favorite snack for a very long time, I think since I was a child, is popcorn. Um, I love popcorn microwave popcorn with toppings. I love doing popcorn on the stove with oil, um, and letting it pop. And that's very fun. And I like to put, um, today I have microwave popcorn because you know, it's early and I put a little Parmesan cheese on it
Virgie Tovar: [01:23] Yes. I mean, I, I also made microwave popcorn. Um, we have this Death Star popcorn maker and I was like I just don't have time to pull it out, but it's so cool. It's like this weird Star Wars-y ball that shoots out popcorn.
Um, Okay. So I'm going to count down from three ready? 3, 2, 1 chomp.
Ooh, crunchy.
Summer: [01:51] It's so delicious. I especially have to say my favorite part of microwave – I mean I love the popcorn kernels when they're popped, but I especially love the half-popped kernels at the bottom of the bag or the, the bowl, whatever you have. They're just like popped open just a tiny bit, and they're crunchy. Oh, mm. I used to fight over them with my siblings when I was a kid. Like, “I want the half popped ones!”
Virgie Tovar: [02:14] You’re like blowing my little bit because like, I like those are sort of, I don't know. I don't know. I think, I feel like those kernels are controversial territory. I'm like, I feel like if those are the untouchable kernels and I'm like, are we reclaiming the bottom kernels? Are we doing this?
Summer: [02:28] But they have to be just have to be like popped open just a tiny bit, not the ones that are unpopped, you know, just a tiny pop and, oh, it's like, I don't know. One of those, um, acquired tastes maybe. Yeah.
Virgie Tovar: [02:40] Ok, I’m doing it though.
Ok so tell me, I mean, so in your new book you write, “I didn't know my body's strength and resilience until I put myself in situations where I had to rely on my intuition, knowledge, and creative problem solving to get my fat body from the trail head through the woods and to the destination.”
I mean, I love that, um, this idea of hiking as something that can strengthen intuition that can connect us to our problem solving abilities, right. Um, and so I guess this leads me to the question, right, um, when hiking goes, right, what does it do for you? What does it do for a person?
Summer: [03:22] I think it's empowering. I think it really is empowering and I've, I've had lots of other people say the same thing. Um, it's really good for your mental health to be in nature like that. Like, there's, this is like scientifically proven. There's been studies done about it, right. And I think that's amazing that it has that benefit, and I can really see how it benefits me, and when I've led group hikes, how it, how it benefits other people. How they can just slow down, go at the pace that feels comfortable for them and really, you know, pet the moss, look at a leaf, um, see how the lights coming through the trees, just, um, what does that feel like? And what does that experience going to be like to be really in nature in that way?
And especially when it's warm enough to have bare feet on the ground, there's something about like, “I am part of this earth and the earth is part of me.” And it makes me feel like, um, insignificant. It really does. It really is like this healing space where I can be like, I am just being, I'm just existing, I'm in this world.
And I definitely feel that, that, you know, it's really like nurturing my inner child to like, you know, walk on a log. And like yesterday, I did a little walk and there was a bay, and I was, it was low tide. So I was walking in the bay, and there's all this drift logs, and I found some sticks, and then I'm just like drawing in the sand, and it's just like such a simple thing, right. Just finding a cool stick and drawing in the sand and you know, there's no point to it, but it, it feels good. And I think we all need that. We all need to like, just play really. It's just play.
Virgie Tovar: [05:05] Yeah. I mean, when you say, um, it makes you feel insignificant, I completely understand. I mean, like, I live really close to the Pacific Ocean. I'm like walking distance, and I notice on days where my problems or my trauma start to feel massive, the ocean is always there to remind me of the scale. The scale of time, the scale of nature, and it can be so liberating to be reminded of this thing that can be so pressing in the moment – like maybe a deadline, maybe that thing that you messed up on at work or whatever – and then you go into nature and you see the enormity and the, incredibleness of it.
And you're reminded – I think the other thing that I, that I love about nature is time is different in nature. I sort of feel like, you know I didn't come up with this, actually. Some other scholars did, but it's called “fat time.” Um, there's also like queer time or people of color time, right? This idea that like there are these sort of alternative ways, the alternative speeds of life that are possible, right? Cause we're sort of told there's this one way to, to take time. Like everything should be as fast as possible, as pragmatic or as practical as possible. But nature is actually on a totally different– it's not on the deadline system. It's on its own thing. And I think that's one of the most healing things to me about nature is being like, “Wow, like the time it takes for one single leaf to grow. The time that it takes for this one little project that an animal is doing takes, you know, weeks, hours, months.” You know what I mean? And I love that feeling.
Summer: [06:43] Yeah. And it's a good reminder that like growth takes time, right? Like healing takes time. And I, and I think that nature really offers us that space to see how things are kind of changing all around you all the time. And going on a trail that I go on often in the winter is very different than in the summer. And what different things you can see and experience in these different times.
And so change… I always think I have a hard time with change. And when I'm really observing nature in this way that I like to do, I am reminded that like change is always happening, It's like always constantly, constantly changing. And I think it really helps me to be like, it's okay that I am kind of always changing too. Like I'm reminded that as a human, I kind of always want to be growing and changing in the same ways that nature are and kind of just always just living in the moment, which is really hard to do in our culture honestly.
Virgie Tovar: [07:36] Yeah. Yeah. And I think, especially if you're in a marginalized body, like that kind of connection is not something that, you know, I feel like I was not allowed to have that. And I was sort of thinking about the parts of my body that I feel still are lacking resolution, right? I'm like, “Okay, I can reclaim my belly.” Somehow, that felt really easy, but there's these other things, these other parts, like my upper arms or my inner thighs, or I'm like, this is still bugging me after, you know, so many years of doing this And I, I was like, what, what tool do I need to develop in order to kind of work through some of this?
And I actually was like, “Nature.” I decided to just go to the park and be like, “Hey, is it possible that there's a part, that part of me is mirrored in nature?” I'm like, of course the answer is yes, right?
And so what I did was I was like, okay, let's look for inner nature. And because I have, I have chafe scars. I have like discoloration. All the things, right. From like years of chub rub. And so I went out and I was like, “Oh my goodness, that tree. It's the same shade of my inner thighs. That tree right there, that plant like has these kinds of like little ripples that look exactly like my thighs do when I like cross my legs or when I like, you know, sit down criss-cross applesauce.” Um, and like “That, those like pores that I have that are somehow like, you know, carrying like so many extra hairs than any other pore, that, it looks like this little cactus pad has like multiple follicle little, little pores.” And so anyway I just like, I love that experience of just being like yeah, go out in nature, every single part of your body, whether it's socially acceptable or not is there.
Summer: [09:13] I totally agree with you. And I see my fat body reflected in nature all the time, especially on the beach. Like when I'm on the beach, I see stretch marks all the time. And I feel like stretch marks is something that, you know, we're taught that we shouldn't have and that we should try to eradicate with whatever lotions and all the things that capitalism can sell to us essentially.
And I saw it yesterday, actually just like these, the way the water and the wind sort of makes these little ridges and it's beautiful. Like it is gorgeous. And every time I see it, I'm just like, “Oh!” Like, it takes my breath away in this really unexpected way. And I always take a photo of it. And I usually post it on the Fat Girls Hiking Instagram, because I'm like, “People should see this!” Like, “Look at these stretch marks on the beach!”
Like no one would look at these stretch marks on the beach and say, “Oh, like, you know, let's get rid of those.” Or, “Let's eradicate stretch marks on the beach.” Um, it's beautiful. And, and we can embrace our bodies in that same way with how they're reflected in nature.
Like, there is nothing wrong with our bodies having dimples and, you know, cellulite and stretch marks and discoloration or whatever we want to say it is on our bodies that we don't like, right.
It doesn't have to be a bad thing. We can reframe the things that we've been programmed to think about the way our bodies are, you know? And I think just, you know, I love, you know, taking photos of myself next to these spaces because it really reminds me of that reflection and, and it's beautiful. It really is beautiful.
Virgie Tovar: [10:44] Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean, I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about the messages that you were receiving that you needed healing from that hiking ended up becoming like a medicine or a balm for.
Summer: [10:58] I mean, absolutely. I was, uh, as a kid, I was a dancer and a gymnast and I was in track and field, and I really loved these movement spaces. Um, and I, I consider what happened to me in these fitness spaces to be a trauma and like a source of shame about my body because I was always the last person, you know, when we had to do like the running the mile in gym class, I was always the last person.
And I remember pushing myself and pushing myself and doing the best that I could, but being like, you know, talked down to or shamed or told that it was not good and not right. And I just thought like, “How can that not be good? I really did my best. I wasn't like not trying to do my best.” And it was still put down and I, and it really instilled this feeling of like, I'm not good enough, like in the eyes of my gymnast or my dance instructor or, you know, the track and field coach is like, I'm not good enough. And I really internalize that, honestly, I really did.
And it's really like connecting with other people who are doing things that you have maybe not seen a fat person do. So like, for me, it was like connecting with people who are like scuba divers and competitive bicycle riders, and they're fat.
And like, that was cool to me and be like, what? So we can really do you know, people can do whatever they want and to really see that and to see how people are sort of changing that narrative of like, who is a hiker. Um, it can be anyone, you know, it's not just like this thin white dude in an REI ad. Like it's, it's anyone who wants to have that experience and do that activity. So that's really how I've been able to like turn this like trauma fitness from my childhood into, um, a healing space from that honestly.
And I know that it's helped others as well. And so like, it's honestly such a gift. Like, I feel like who am I to, to be the person to do this work? You know, I, I, I'm no expert. I just am like some weirdo who likes to pet moss and, you know, hates diet culture and all the shame that it gives to us. So.
Virgie Tovar: [13:16] I love that. Loves moss, hates diet culture. That's great.
Summer: [13:20] I should put that on a t-shirt.
Virgie Tovar: [13:22] You should. You should. It's good. It's good. It's really good. Um, I'm about like, you know, for that transition from that kid who was sort of learning and internalizing shame to the person who is reclaiming nature and hiking, you know, how did the repair or the shift in that relationship – How did that happen?
Summer: [13:44] Oh man. I was, I feel like it took me a long time to get where I am now.
So, yeah, as a kid, I had this trauma fitness, and then as a teenager, I started really learning about feminism. And I remember the first time I ever saw the word fat being used in a non-derogatory way was this zine called Fat!So? Um which is now a book by Marilyn Wann.
And it really was like, really like questioning beauty standards as a teenager I think really helped me because I had – my dad was in the modeling industry. He worked as a modeling agent in Chicago, and that was like really, uh, bizarre. You know, I would meet people who were models, who were in magazines and commercials and things at the time. And they were teenagers. They were like my age. So like having that experience of like being in that world and being just like, I was a weird teenager. I dressed really weird, and I definitely was called the freak of my high school. And my twenties was like that too, you know.
And it really did, it really just did take a long time of me not connecting to my body to be honest. It was really like, this thing is here. And I wasn't really like in my body. And I think it was more just like really appreciating what my body is and what my body does for me.
And, you know, I think about you, Virgie, often when I think about that story you tell about how you're a little kid, and you're just like shaking your whole body and how that felt so good to you. And it made you so happy. And like, I think about that often because it's really this freedom just to like be in your body. And I definitely lost that for 20 years, you know?
And it was like, I was like in my late thirties – and I'm in my early forties now – that I found hiking, and I could really get back to that place of “Yeah, uh, fuck beauty standards, first of all.” And then how can I be in my body without, you know, rejecting it?
And it's like, when those thoughts come up, it's really like telling myself a different story. So it's like, “Okay, I'm feeling a little bit of shame because I'm breathing heavy on this hike or I'm kind of sweaty. And like it seems like the rest of the group’s kind of going a little faster.” And you know, that stuff comes up from when I was a kid of like not being good enough. And I really just tell myself these like different things. Like, I'll just be like, um, “You're doing great.” I just say, “You're doing great.” And like, that's sometimes is enough. Or I'll just be like, “You're doing great. You're perfect the way you are.” Like, you know, all these kind of like silly affirmations, but they really do help me to stop the, the shame spiral that can sometimes happen, you know?
Virgie Tovar: [16:18] Like, I'm just thinking my, um, so my therapist, no matter how terrible anything I tell him, he's like, “Good awareness, Virgie.” You know, it's like, “I hate this. This is terrible.” He's like, “Great awareness.” I think – it's a universal thing. Yeah. “I hate this. I feel terrible. I am being triggered in my –” “Great awareness.”
Summer: [16:42] Right. I think–
Virgie Tovar: [16:43] We can always say that to ourselves.
Summer: [16:45] Right. “This sucks right now. And guess what? It's not going to always feel sucky, but it sucks right now.” Right? I think acknowledging our feelings on things is the first step for sure.
And then the next step could be like, you know, “This sucks and you're doing great. Like you're doing great in a sucky situation.” And – because we don't, you know, like the, I don't want to be like toxic positivity where like I have to be positive all the time either. I don't put that pressure on myself, but I think it is important for me to sort of like know that this is not my thought. Like this shame is not my own thought.
Like I'm way too rebellious to shame myself. Like I am still that teenage feminist zine-maker. I do not need to like perpetuate those ideas within myself, but you know, sometimes it's hard. And I have to like, you know, really just be in that, be in that feeling of like “I'm having a lot of shame, and, you know, that's also okay.” And re- just reminding myself, it's not going to always feel that way.
<BREAK>
Virgie Tovar: [17:59] So can you tell me, like what, what is Fat Girls Hiking? And how did you come up with this idea?
Summer: [18:07] Um, so Fat Girls Hiking is a community organization that I started in 2015, and it really started as an Instagram account. And I was documenting, you know, places I was hiking or places I camped or traveled to. And really just as a way for people to see fat people in nature. And from there, it led to leading group hikes, which I honestly had no idea how to do when I first started.
And then it led to, um, chapters all over the country – and there's a few outside of the US as well – just to have that representation for people wherever they are, you know. Because it's important to have representation. And it's important to be with a group that you feel is going to celebrate who you are. Whoever that is. Um, because we welcome people of all sizes and all genders, even though our name is Fat Girls Hiking. I just want marginalized people in general, just to, to be able to experience that same healing space that I've found for myself.
And so that's really like the offering of Fat Girls Hiking is a healing space to connect with themselves, with nature, and with other people in the community who, you know, come together.
Virgie Tovar: [19:14] Yes. Okay. So I mean, pretty much all of us grow up essentially understanding hiking as a calorie burning exercise activity. I mean, I think a lot of us are socialized, unfortunately, to see nature almost like an outdoor gym. And I'm wondering, right? Like, as you're doing this work to create access and to create space for healing, what does it look like to redefine hiking, to redefine the outdoors for the work that you're doing?
Summer: [19:45] Oh, it's so important to redefine hiking because there's definitely this, um, gatekeeping that happens within the outdoor industry of like what is a hike. And to me, a hike is any time you're moving in nature.
And you don't even have to do a hike. Like you can just sit and be in nature intentionally. You can sit in your yard in a chair. You can sit on a blanket in a space that is green and just, really connect to whatever the nature is around you. It doesn't have to be ten miles to constitute a hike in, in, this is how I'm reframing it to my community and in my work. That we can make up the rules of what a hike is for us.
And so when I lead a group hike, it's really like inviting people into this space that's very intentional. So we have community guidelines where we will have absolutely no weight loss or diet talk in this space online or in real life, you know. And that can be kind of tricky because we're all sort of, you know, given this information from our culture and from society that, um, as fat people we should be wanting to lose weight and make ourselves smaller to be more acceptable. And I don't believe that. And I don't subscribe to that.
And I really invite people to be like, whatever you need on a hike, if it's a group hike or if you're by yourself, you can – one of my models is: go at your own pace. Like I can't go at the same pace as other people. I have chronic pain and that's fine. And so I go at the pace that feels good for me.
And I always lead group hikes from behind. And for me, the slowest people – which is me included – are the people setting the pace of each group hike. And I always reassure people that the slowest people in the group are going to get the most support from the hike leaders. And that's how it should be! No fatty left behind! You know, we don't have to exclude people in that way.
Virgie Tovar: [21:37] I mean, I'm so glad you brought up “No fatty left behind.” Honestly, that's one of my favorites – uh, that is my favorite of Fat Girls Hiking’s guidelines is that you, that you lead from the rear.
And let's discuss, I mean, for people, I mean the rear of a hike is a specific space when you're in a fat body or in a body that doesn't move at the same speed as what's considered maybe normal or whatever, right. Which is like a really horrible feeling.
Summer: [22:04] Yeah. I've heard so many terrible stories from people who have gone on like more traditional kind of group hikes and have been left behind. And I just think that is shitty. As a leader, you should not be leaving people behind. It's unsafe. It's not cool. And you know, honestly, fuck those people who leave anyone behind.
And the other thing is – how Fat Girls Hiking is different is: you decide what the end point of your hike is. Your destination is wherever you end up, and that is amazing and perfect. And, and I will celebrate that with you because you did that.
Like I remember I was leading a hike in, in New York, and there was like a creek crossing, and it had rained a bunch recently, so it was like a pretty intense creek crossing. Even for me, and I'm like fine with that. And so there was several people on the hike that were like, “Yeah, I don't really want to keep going. I don't want to go over that creek.” And I was like, I don't want to either. And so honestly some people kept going and some of us stayed back and just kind of sat on, on a tree log and talked about fatphobia in the forest. And that was like an am- it was an amazing experience.
And so it's an invitation for people to really like listen to their bodies and listen to their needs and advocate for their needs. And that's what Fat Girls Hiking and the spaces that I create with Fat Girls Hiking, like, that's what it's about is: You are safe to advocate your needs.
Virgie Tovar: [23:22] Yes. Yes. I mean, I, I, I love this a hundred percent. I mean, I think all of that, that freedom and that autonomy, it's so healing, you know. Because I think the idea, again, with the historical connection of hiking in nature with exercise, the idea is it should feel kind of miserable a hundred percent of the time. Um, and I think that, you know, like it just resisting that as amazing.
So I want, I want to talk about community. So being on the trail alone is one thing, but being a trail leader, bringing people along into your vision for what's possible for our relationship to hiking, to nature, to our bodies. Um, what have you learned from making the Fat Girls Hiking community?
Summer: [24:03] I have learned so much about myself and my own insecurities as a leader. When I first started leading group hikes, I wanted to be on the top of a mountain with a group of fat people. And I thought, “God, that would be so epic.” You know?
And so I led a hike where we were climbing this pretty challenging trail near Portland and you know what? Most of us were miserable, and it wasn't like the most fun experience. And most of us made it to the top. And, you know, it was like not as exciting, not as great as I thought it would be to be honest.
And so, like, what I've learned is we don't need to stand on top of a mountain together to be epic and empowered and inspired. We can, we can just be wherever we are like in nature together.
And really my focus more now is having accessible spaces, really, like having spaces where wheelchair users will be able to access the trail or, you know, people who can't go up in elevation, whatever people's needs are. Like, I want to make sure that, that anyone who wants to come on a hike has a space where we can be, um, seen and celebrated. And everyone should have that space, you know?
Virgie Tovar: [25:19] Yes. Okay. So, Summer, if you had one tool, if you had pick one tool you'd give to our Rebel Eaters Club listeners to help them reconnect nature, to use nature, or to reconnect to their body, what would it be?
Summer: [25:32] So the tool that I think is really important is: to connect to nature, you don't have to hike. You can literally be inside your home. You can, you know, look at your plant. You can touch the leaves of your plant. You can learn more about your plants, right? You, you can go outside, you can sit on a chair in your yard or in a park and just be observing what's going on around you in the natural world. You don't have to go on a hike.
So I think it's really just like changing the mindset of what a hike is. I often am just sitting in my chair on the beach, and that is totally valid. And it's really like a way to heal the wounds of diet culture for me.
Virgie Tovar: [26:17] Ugh! I love this so much, Summer. Thank you so much for being on Rebel Eaters Club!
Summer: [26:23] Thank you for having me, Virgie!
Virgie Tovar: [26:41] Whether you're ready to reclaim hiking or not, no judgment! Summer laid out the revolutionary foundation for re-imagining who is in the outdoors and what is possible when it comes to how we relate to nature and our bodies. I love a good reframe.
If you have thoughts on this conversation or what makes a good trail snack or just want to say hi, reach out! DM me on social media @virgietovar. DM our producers @transmitterpods, or send us an email at rebeleatersclub@gmail.com.
Rebel Eaters Club is brought to you by Transmitter Media. This episode was written and produced by Isabel Carter. Sarah Nics is Transmitter’s executive editor. Wilson Sayre is our managing producer. Gretta Cohn is our executive producer. And I'm your host Virgie Tovar. Rick Kwan is our mix engineer, and thanks to Taka Yasuzawa who wrote some of the music we use in the show.
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See you next week.